• Looking Back by Erik Johansson
• The Good Business Witch
• Megan Winkler
• Megan Winkler on Instagram
• Coworking Coven
• Art & Self Connection Circle — Self-Study
• Cindy Needs Art on Facebook and Instagram
• Christina’s World by Andrew Wyeth

This transcript was auto-generated, so please excuse any typos or misspellings.

Cindy Ingram 0:02
Hello, and welcome to art and self. I’m Cindy Ingram, your host and the founder of art class curator, the curated connections library and the art and self connection circle. This is a podcast where we experience the range and depth of what it means to be human seen through our connections and conversations about work smart. These aren’t conversations are here to show you that art is here for you as a catalyst, Challenger, to coach and comfort. Before we get started, take a moment to fill up your lungs with a deep breath, connect with your body and your mind and your spirit and get ready to discover what art has to show you.

Today on the podcast, we have the amazing Megan Winkler and she will introduce herself in a bit. But before we get started, I just wanted to tell you a quick story about what happened with the recording of this episode. So I recorded this episode The day before, the art and self connection circles regular weekly meeting. So we spent this wonderful hour with Megan picking apart this work of art, we we ended up at a really cool place that gave us both chills. And you’ll get to experience that here in this episode. And then, you know, inspired by our conversation, I brought the same artwork to the art and self connection circle to have them discuss because it kind of fit in with the theme of the day. And you know, it was really inspired to continue talking about it. And then when I put it up in that room, they got a completely different

interpretation than the one that Megan and I had worked on. And it was fascinating to me and I was so thrown off by what they were saying because it was really different. So I don’t want to spoil it for you, I want you to really hear what me and Meghan have to say. And then I’ll come back at the end of the episode and tell you what the people in the art and self connection circle had to say about the artwork was really it. It kind of blew my mind just a little bit and it really shows how art changes with whoever’s looking at it, that what you bring a lot to the artwork when you get in front of it, that it’s not just this one thing that you know always has the same meaning and that can change and depending on what you notice and what you don’t notice. In this case, what you don’t notice. It changes everything. So without further ado, here is my conversation with Megan. Hello. I am so excited to welcome Meghan Winkler to the podcast. Hello, Megan

Megan Winkler 2:44
Hello How are you Cindy?

Cindy Ingram 2:46
I’m doing great. So excited to be with you. I have four really awesome works of art. I’m really once I got the fourth one like locked in I was like yes, these are. These are perfect. So hopefully you like them as much as I do. But before we get started, can you introduce yourself to our listeners?

Megan Winkler 3:02
Absolutely. I am so happy to be here. I seriously woke up so excited about this conversation. It’s gonna be so much fun. I’m Meghan Winkler, I am also known as the good business witch and I am on a mission to help women build their businesses in a way that really supports them eliminates burnout. And obviously, as the name implies, I receive a lot of actual magic and intuition and and like days of the week energy and all that into my work as well. So it’s a really cool experience.

Cindy Ingram 3:35
Wonderful. So we’ll put links to all your stuff in the show notes and then by the end of this you’ll know a lot more about what Meghan to and what what she’s all about. So um let me put up our art and let you choose one so take Give me one second while I get this

Okay, and so what I want you to do is look at them not intellectually and in your mind but like what really gives you the most what really really draws you in emotionally what makes you want to talk about it, what makes you captivated and we’ll go from there. Okay, so this one is for our listeners so they know what you’re looking at. This is the nightmare by Henry Fuselli. And then we have sopa de Europa by Miquel Barcelo. Looking back by Erik Johansson and Minotaurus by Ndipha Mntambo

Megan Winkler 4:38
wow these are also good. is this Minotaurus at the DMA

Cindy Ingram 4:45
but it’s not it’s at the High Museum in Atlanta.

Okay, cuz I feel like I’ve seen this one before like in person. Um, you know what, I’m so torn between the second and the third one though.

unless you look I might again

Megan Winkler 5:01
yeah. Oh, that’s so cool let’s do this one I don’t like the other one is like, like, I love it and it’s dark and confusing. And I want to like get into it, but I don’t know.

Cindy Ingram 5:24
This is calling you and this is the right answer. Awesome. This one is looking back by Erik Johansson. And yeah, the other one. I’ve actually talked about a lot. This one I’ve ever gotten to interpret before. So I’m kind of excited to chose that one. So I can I like ones that I’ve never really explored. Alright, so let me get this a little bit bigger for us. Okay, all right. So let’s start with the description for our listeners and listeners. Please don’t look at this while you’re driving. But the picture of it will be in the show notes. So you want to start the description?

Megan Winkler 6:13
Sure. So it’s it looks very like contemporary to me. I’m not sure like, what do we have the date on this one?

Cindy Ingram 6:13
We do. I think it’s 20. It is contemporary. It’s like in the last few years to about 2020. Yeah,

Megan Winkler 6:13
okay. Yeah. So it has that very, like contemporary like, it’s happening right now thing and it really reminds me of being on some farmland. Like out in like Ann Arbor, Michigan. I saw. Yeah, I saw a barn that look like this. But there is a barn and kind of in the background. And in the foreground, you see, this woman who looks like she’s got her back turned to the wind. And she’s looking back at this barn. And it’s like, as I look at it more, there’s like a child’s over there as well. Maybe there’s a tornado coming. You know, but it also looks like there’s some kind of spirits in the background. There’s a lot of this a lot.

Cindy Ingram 7:36
Yeah. So I would add to this description that it is a photograph. It’s kind of hard to tell you. It could be Yeah, it looks like it could be a painting. Because the colors are so vibrant. And it has a strong diagonal road that goes through it. And she’s on the road. We can’t tell exactly if she’s walking forward or going back like what is actually happening with her. But the wind has her hair blowing straight. And then the there’s trees and stuff around her but they’re they’re blurred. And then the barn is like the roof. Parts of the roof are flying up. And then there’s parts of the trees flying around as well. And then it’s like a cloudy, cloudy day with the sun really bright in the top left.

Megan Winkler 7:36
Over on the right in the bottom right, too. Yeah, yeah. Her shadow and everything.

Cindy Ingram 7:36
Yeah. And even gets more clear as you go towards the back. And usually it’s the opposite. Like the the background is more blurred than the foreground. The foreground is really blurred. Although she’s not blurred.

Megan Winkler 7:36
Yeah, she really stands out. It’s really an interesting image. I love that it’s a photograph, too.

Cindy Ingram 8:30
Yeah, this artist does a lot of like surreal photography and like different angles to make it look confusing. I think he probably at some of them, he has to surely edit because the way they’re they they’re done. But this one, it’s hard to tell exactly. Alright, so what do you want to talk about? First, what really is drawing you in? Here,

Megan Winkler 8:30
I think what’s so captivating about this image is it almost has kind of like that Marvel movie, a superhero esque movement to it, that you can’t really tell either if she’s running away from something and looking back at it, or if she has come and like turned all the way around. And like, I don’t know, almost like the wind is pushing her toward it. It’s just, I don’t know, it’s this confusion of like movement back and forth.

Cindy Ingram 9:16
And I’m noticing too, that her something we didn’t mention in the description, but her body is in a diagonal line that is opposite from the diagonal line of the road. So like the diagonal line of her body and the diagonal, diagonal line of the road really, like meet and form a lot of like dynamic energy. And it’s confusing, because if we were to see a picture of someone walking down the road, their body would be more straight up and if they’re running, they would be kind of leaning forward a little bit but she’s leaning way back. And so it’s it really is like off putting or can’t figure out which way is up.

Megan Winkler 9:16
Yeah, yeah. And it kind of has that like that like quick hitting the brakes. Yeah, as well. And yeah, it’s just really, really interesting. And I mean, you know, aren’t being from Texas, it’s like, you kind of get the sense that there is like this big wind or this tornado coming through because there’s the barn flying off and the roof is half missing. And you know, all the limbs and all that. But I love how she’s also just like in this bright sunlight.

Cindy Ingram 9:16
Yeah. One thing I’m noticing too is if you look at the at her feet, it gets a little bit of a clue because in front of her toes, there’s like dirt flying up. And it’s like, you know, when you’re we’ve been watching a lot of baseball lately, my husband’s obsessed with baseball, but in the World Series is about to happen. But, you know, when they slide in the dirt, you know, the dirt flies up. So it’s like, she, her body is going forward, but she’s trying to, it’s almost like she’s trying to keep herself from going forward, because it’s like, her toes are like planted in the ground and the dirt is flying up. Like, there’s that friction. So something’s pulling, maybe pulling her forward. But she’s resisting that.

Megan Winkler 9:16
Yeah. And what I find is interesting to that is it looks like in front of the barn, it almost looks like this little boy figure with like, a red hat, maybe looking away from her. And I don’t know, I’m seeing like, a lot of just hard to make out shapes of like, maybe there’s other people or maybe there’s spirits, or it’s kind of very, like kind of Southern Gothic field too, which is interesting.

Cindy Ingram 9:16
Yeah. Yeah, it’s funny where you see the boy, I see just little, like, bokeh lights, you

know, those like, oh, yeah, yeah, I

just kind of see it as light. But oh, that’s wild. It’s, it’s hard to make out because that particular part of the photograph is very blurred.

Megan Winkler 9:16
Very much. So. Yeah. Yeah. But it’s kind of like, okay, so what what is in the direction that she is looking that, like, is something that she does not want to go forward? Toward? Yeah.

Cindy Ingram 9:16
What do you think that’d be? Yeah, I

Megan Winkler 9:16
don’t know. I don’t know. I mean, there’s, there’s the thought of like, maybe there’s a message of domesticity there that maybe it’s another part. Maybe it’s a house? Yeah. And yeah, I don’t know. Did you have a copy?

Cindy Ingram 9:16
Yeah, it’s interesting, because you would think if it were like a tornado or a storm or something like she, that the end of the road looks like, that’s where you would want to go. It’s not very windy over there. It’s sunny. Like, everything’s more clear. Like, yeah, go there. But she’s doesn’t she’s just like, trying to stay into like that vortex, like, blurred energy.

Megan Winkler 9:16
And that’s what struck me. And when I was picking it is that it’s like, there’s this big huge force coming from the right hand side of the picture where it’s obvious. It’s it is it is heavy enough to throw branches off trees and shingles off roofs. And at the same time, it looks like she’s running away from that building. Yeah. And running away from maybe running away from that life.

Cindy Ingram 9:16
Yeah, but she’d she’d rather be in the chaos. Then be there.

Megan Winkler 9:16
Yeah. Well, and the chaos is really interesting sometimes, right? Yeah.

Cindy Ingram 9:16
I can definitely speak to that like chaos. It’s more it’s fun.

Megan Winkler 9:16
Well, I love how like her dress could be from any period of time, but then her sandals like they look like very modern. Get it like DSW or something, right? They’re not old fashion. Because my first thought was when I first looked at it, I was like, Oh, this is kind of like a 40s like a 30s. Dustbowl coming on theme. And it’s not.

Cindy Ingram 9:16
Okay. Something that just popped in my head. I’m going to open up another browser. Do you know the painting Christina’s World?

Megan Winkler 9:16
I don’t know. I don’t know that. I know it from that. And that name?

Cindy Ingram 9:16
You might once you see it, you’ll like oh, yeah, I’ve seen that before.

Megan Winkler 9:16
Oh, yeah. Yeah.

Cindy Ingram 14:39
So this has a very big Christina’s World vibe. Isn’t the same color dress. I mean, it’s in the Christina’s worlds pink in the art painting or photograph. It’s like a brighter red. There’s a barn slash house in the background. But in this one, I just put it up on the screen. So listeners are also linked to this too. It looks like that’s where she wants to be. So it’s like the opposite of Christina’s World.

Megan Winkler 14:46
Yeah. It’s almost like Christina grew up.

Unknown Speaker 14:51
It was like, I want to live

Cindy Ingram 14:55
Yeah, like everything I always thought I wanted I actually don’t want anymore yeah. Yeah, so much so I can I can ring true to that, like, I worked so hard towards a goal recently, and, and once I kind of got the goal, I was like, Ooh, I don’t, I don’t know that I like it here. And this is not right. And then so it just like threw my whole world into chaos because I didn’t know what I actually wanted. Yeah. So I can, I can definitely relate to that. For sure. It makes me think of women too. It’s just like, we there’s this narrative that women, you know, want to get married and have children and like, do this thing. And we just kind of follow the steps. And now, I mean, we’re, we have more options than we did. But that you know, I know a lot of women, especially when their kids are little, they’re like, what, what did I? How did I get myself here? Is this one I really want? Yeah, it’s like your life is sort of chaotic at that moment, too. So, yeah,

Megan Winkler 16:00
I’m just kind of thinking about it as well, like, in context of, you know, it was released in 2020. So who knows how long it took, you know, or when he took the photograph? Yeah. You know, it’s like, especially in the past couple of years, it’d be interesting to see what this this photograph how it gets interpreted, you know, like, 50 years down the road, because right now, you know, we’re seeing so many trends of, you know, still women are making are having to make these really hard decisions about, do I stay at my work? Do I just say, you know, what I call it quits, and let you know, our family will be a one income household, I’ll go home, take care of the kids, because it’s expensive, and like, we’re all still like, living with those effects of the pandemic, right. I was reading an article this morning, about how test scores are way down for school kids. And it’s like, this is the ripple effect. And so, you know, it’s like, on top of, like, all of the, the, you know, tug and pull of being a woman of, I want to have a career and also be a good partner or wife, mother, whatever. Like, there’s also like a societal polls as well. And so I really find, I find the imagery in this really interesting in that it is so contemporary, and it looks like it could be from any time the past like century honestly, like, yeah, you could almost see her in the 1920s or the 1930s out at her her little secluded home on this little dirt path.

Cindy Ingram 17:43
Yeah, as you were talking, it kind of made me think about

that like the this sort of blurred landscape that’s trying to pass her by could represent like, the velocity of life, you know, just, it’s something that we all experienced, the pandemic just just was like a stop. And we kind of got used to that stop. And then now life is back to being like, fast paced again, and doing like, even this morning, I’m like driving my daughter forget something. And then she does this. And then my other daughter has a 3d filter, you know, so there’s like, things after things after things. And, and I’ve had a lot of conversations with people that were kind of resisting that now. It’s just like, we liked that it was slow, and we liked that things were calm. But we also like, Well, we still need to give our kids experiences and they still need to have a life and what does that mean for me when I just want to slow down but I still have to I still have to participate in that. Chaos. For me.

Megan Winkler 18:53
That’s right. Like maybe she’s like, she knows she’s going to turn into the chaos. Like maybe she just really actually did nail that sourdough recipe.

Cindy Ingram 19:05
I wasn’t quite done with that.

Megan Winkler 19:07
Yeah, cuz no, you make an excellent point. Like, it’s almost as if it’s we’ve gotten as close to the pre pandemic normal. I think then we have been before. And people are like, I mean, people like society, like we’re forgetting about all the self care that we so got into in 2020. And 2021 is like, Oh, now we’re gonna go do the thing. And, um, you know, here in the States, it’s just such a fast paced life. And, you know, it’s like productivity and high energy and there’s working ourselves to the bone is glamorized and all that stuff. And it’s like, there’s definitely, you know, I could definitely see this subject like, wanting to fight against that. At or knowing that it’s inevitable, right? Because there’s this huge wind on this one side of this painting, or this is called it a painting. It looks like a painting. And like, it’s that kind of wistful, like, No, I don’t want it to go away. Yeah.

Cindy Ingram 20:19
So you I noticed interest in your business over the last year, you’ve been talking more and more about burnout? How do you find burnout represented in this artwork, that’s I almost said painting too.

Megan Winkler 20:36
Seriously, if you’re not seeing this in a video, you should go look this up. This is gorgeous. Yeah, burnout, it’s just what really struck strikes me is that there are so many powerful forces in our lives. And it’s like, you can almost see the wind is, or the movement, I mean, I’m assuming it’s the wind is kind of the, it’s the giant vortex that we can all get caught up in. And, you know, this is, I think this transcends gender, it’s like, there’s always something that we want to get back to, we want to get back to family, or we want to get back to friends or self care, or, you know, something, or some passion, right? Like, we want to get back to our art or writing. And, you know, but there’s, there’s all these forces that we can so easily fall in the clutches of, you know, and just kind of get in the big swirl of it all. And there’s always there’s always that conflict, like, I mean, that’s one of the things in my work is like, yep, stress is always going to be there. And conflict is always going to be there. And it doesn’t have to get to that burnout point. But we do need to do, you need to recognize and learn how to manage those conflicts between the vortex of the world and the gogogo. And the, you know, the boss that wants you to work 10 hours instead eight, or whatever. And then also, you know, what’s good for you and your desires and your personal life?

Cindy Ingram 22:19
Yeah. And I was really sort of, as you were talking, you know, looking at the artwork, and I’m saying, the tension on her body, like her legs are tensed up, you know, doing, trying to hold herself back. She’s got, you know, she’s falling backwards, I can kind of imagine what that must feel like. And that constant flow of work, like the toll it’s taking on our body, like the grading of our teeth, and the tensing of our muscles is we’re just powering through that, you know, that has such a physical effect. And I have, I often find when I’m looking at artwork, I did it with the, the one that I am, my, my conversation with a net on the podcast last week, was I keep finding myself just putting myself into her role and imagining what it would feel like and and I wanted, I wanted also I keep doing that, and it’s like, really kind of uncomfortable to do that. But I’m finding myself like, wanting to tell her to just, like, let go. Yeah. You know, like, just stop fighting. And I’m wondering what would happen if she would stop fighting?

Megan Winkler 23:37
Yeah. Well, I think that’s what’s interesting about that is, you know, I agree, like, there’s this, you want to say, like, Go, and I did just notice on her left hand there, it does look like she’s wearing a wedding ring. Interesting. Point it seriously, like, the longer I look at it, there’s more Yeah. But what I also was looking at as you’re speaking is kind of because we can’t see her face, but we can infer the shape of her profile a little bit, kind of near the top, like, you can see kind of a bit of her forehead. You can kind of imagine, like, where her chin would be. And I think it’s interesting that it’s like she, in this kind of chaos. She doesn’t have an identity, beyond the fact that she’s in this pinkish red dress. Wearing sandals, which are not like, renowned for their durability. Yeah. And, you know, got her wedding ring on. And, you know, I think that’s part of it is like we as women kind of struggle with, you know, who am I outside of, you know, either the home or the crazy vortex of, you know, work and you know, all of the responsibilities we have to write because there’s a big crossover, right, it’s so we’ve got it It needs to go to soccer practice, that’s a responsibility that is going to take our time and energy that doesn’t have to do with work. Yeah. So but yeah, I just kind of like, I like how she’s also she’s kind of leaning into it for, like to push against it. And so that’s why her feet are dragging, but she’s not looking toward the vortex err, you know? Yeah. And it’s interesting. It’s like, yeah, what happened if you just didn’t find it?

Cindy Ingram 25:29
Yeah, I keep going back and forth. Because I’m like, Well, okay, once I said, let go, but then I was like, Well, what if letting go gives her? What she doesn’t want? So if she was, so is she resisting something? So I’m gonna have to do this in an actual real life example. So this kind of thing I thought I wanted. I pushed really hard for a long time. And I had a lot of intuition, nudges, signs. I knew well before, but I was on the wrong path. But I was like, No, this is my goal. I had this. I can’t I can’t change that. So it’s like I always I was ignoring a lot of the signs that were telling me early on to change course. And it wasn’t until like, everything fell to pieces. And then I was burned out for an entire over at least a year. Did I actually like, oh, start to listen, like, oh, I should have been, I should have listened to that. I shouldn’t have just powered through that. So part of me is like, is letting go and then her in her place? Here is it is letting go giving in to this thing that she’s resisting? And just or is letting go. Moving her closer to what she want. Like, what? Is it good or bad here? Yeah. I can’t I can’t quite figure out what would happen if she lets go.

Megan Winkler 27:11
Yeah. So interesting. Because it’s kind of the concept of like, surrender is not giving up. Like there’s a, there’s a Florence in the machine lyric that says I’m not giving up, I’m just giving in. And it’s like, kind of using your story. You know, I’m also seeing kind of a rainbow behind her almost kind of like a lens.

Cindy Ingram 27:39
Oh, yeah, I see that.

Megan Winkler 27:40
Yeah, I’m loving this, you know. And it’s like, if she stopped fighting the wind that’s pushing her from behind. Then she flies off, let’s just say like, let’s just get imagine. He flies off, like the limbs and the shingles from the building. But she’s going down a path already. And she’s headed toward the sunlight. So it’s kind of like, yeah, if she just surrendered. And not that it’s like, she’s quitting, but she stopped fighting the overwhelming force. Does that mean she ends up in a sunny, beautiful pasture? Where all is good? I don’t know.

Cindy Ingram 28:26
Yeah. Maybe that’s what it feels like. And it makes me think of, you know, have you read the recent render experiment? Michael singer?

Megan Winkler 28:35
No. Need to Yeah, it’s

Cindy Ingram 28:37
good. He also read wrote the other one’s better the other books better? What’s the other one called? Well, he wrote a book about kind of about meditation and his journey there. But then surrender experiment was a memoir about his life, or he just basically decided to say yes to everything, like, follow every single nudge at the universe. And he ended up creating this giant, this giant meditation space, and he ended up creating WebMD

Megan Winkler 29:08
Oh, like, like,

Cindy Ingram 29:10
I mean, it’s just like, he’s like a millionaire. So like, he knows it’s, it’s a really crazy story, but that’s what it was. He was just like, he allowed himself to fully surrender to all of those nudges that he was getting. And yeah, it was it was really fascinating. But his other book Gosh, why can’t I think of it? Hold on, I’m just going to look up the name because I really think everybody should read this book. Yeah, and once I see the name I’m gonna be like, of course, oh, Untethered Soul was the other one. Oh, okay. Yeah, so good. Anyway, very cool. It’s one of those that I just like pick up and read again every now and then. Because it’s so good. But yeah, so then um, so it’s part of me is like, Okay, then. Is this the Yeah, are is this wind pushing her? Be the nudges that have the Reverse the nudges of intuition. And because she’s resisting that part of her intuition that she’s staying in this chaotic dark place, and if she just allowed it to, like, guide her and lead her through, she would end up in this peaceful sunny situation.

Megan Winkler 30:17
Well, that’s the thing is, from experience, I can tell you if the universe has some nudges for you, ignore them. They get to be real big nudges.

Cindy Ingram 30:27
Yeah. Yeah. My I didn’t tell ya my my story is there was two very giant knock me on my ass got just over like, really dramatic. And that’s when I finally started to listen, because it’s like, oh, okay, I need to pay him. I need to pay attention. Oh, yeah.

Megan Winkler 30:47
After a certain point, the universe gives us really big yeses or really big nose. Yeah. It’s like, Oh, okay. I should listen to that.

Cindy Ingram 30:55
Yeah. So that makes me think of your, your work with the good business, which and? And how do you what I really love about your work is that you do have an MBA you have, you know, you have all like the knowledge and information and stuff about it. But you also add this sort of mystical component. How do you combine those two in your work?

Megan Winkler 31:21
Oh, my gosh, it’s it’s a daily thing, right? It’s because I came across a tick tock audio that was like, do I believe that witchcraft is just spicy? Psychology? I’m like, Yes, I do.

Cindy Ingram 31:36
Love writing that down.

Megan Winkler 31:39
Yeah, it’s so good. And it’s like, Okay, before we had sciences, we do now it was alchemy, and it was magic. And so I firmly believe that, you know, our intuition and, you know, setting, setting intentions for things, even casting spells, like, we will at some point, have the science to say, Well, yeah, so when you do that it shapes this thing in your brain, or there’s an electromagnetic magnetic field around us that shifts like, we just don’t have the science to explain it yet. So for me, I love bringing kind of that intuitive, magical spiritual element into business, because we are full humans. And I think that a lot of business coaches, and I have many business coaches, they are like, very strategic, they’re very, like, masculine energy. They’re very, like data oriented, KPIs ROI is, you know, all the things, right. And all the stuff that, like, goes into getting an MBA, so it’s good to know about that stuff, and then kind of start breaking the rules. Because I work primarily with women and women, we just do things differently. Like, we talk through solutions a lot more than men tend to, or, you know, we will trust our gut for things outside of work or outside of our business. So it’s like, well, how do we do that in our business. So I really work with my clients and encourage them to, you know, do all of the things that make them a productive business owner, including, take a nap, go to a yoga class, you know, go on a walk with your dog, pull your paints out, like, these are all business activities, as well as you know, tracking your daily marketing and sales or posting on social media or meeting with your clients and that sort of thing. So I just find that that balance between kind of a divine masculine and divine feminine energy in your business is just, it’s like the sweet spot. It’s amazing.

Cindy Ingram 33:55
Yeah, I agree. That’s what I’ve read. I’ve, I have been in that situation with a business coach who I would leave the sessions, and everything she was saying, I’m like, oh, yeah, this makes perfect sense. And, you know, like, she gave me all these things. And we talked through and I would get to the end of it, and I’m like, I don’t want to do any of that. It was like, I was like, This doesn’t feel right. This doesn’t feel and but but then I got into this feeling of like, I was doing something wrong, because clearly, what she recommended would lead to success, it would be really good and it would be a way to reach the people I was trying to reach, but I was just like, Ooh, it doesn’t feel like me. It doesn’t feel fun. And you know, there was so much that just didn’t feel right. And so but but instead of recognize now I can see that now I’m like, oh, yeah, I just I need to do what feels good to me. At the time. It was it was like, I felt not she didn’t shame me, but I was feeling I was shaming myself for not like Am I really doing what she recommended? Yeah. So

Megan Winkler 35:05
well, in that sense part of our society that we live in right is not doing it the right way, then we’re programmed to shame ourselves.

Cindy Ingram 35:13
Yeah. And we’re so programmed to to look for answers outside of ourselves. And that’s what happens to with when I’m showing art to people. I always say, Don’t Google this. Before, don’t know, I don’t even like giving the titles on here. Because I don’t want you to just go look it up, or I don’t want you to, like we use the title even for information, because we’re so trained to go looking for what someone else says about this artwork and what and when really, all of it is in us already.

Megan Winkler 35:45
Yeah, yeah. Well, I’m an I’m a historian as well. And my, my first master’s degree is actually in, in history. And so for me, it’s like, knowing understanding the date kind of helps me kind of put the context to the work, but I agree, like, that’s the beauty of art, I think, is that it’s there for us to consume. It’s like, you know, if I have a blade of spaghetti and meatballs, like it’s going to taste different to me than in, it’ll taste differently to you. There’ll be a lot of commonalities, right, we can all look and say this is a woman in a red dress fighting against some sort of wind on a path, the barn that’s coming apart in headwind, or house coming apart and said wind, but then beyond that, it’s like, Wait, well, what? What’s there, right? Yeah, isn’t there?

Cindy Ingram 36:36
Yeah. And what? So to someone who maybe got some really epic, tragic divorce, like that’s gonna add a whole layer of meaning because she’s got the wedding ring on and you guys are or, you know, there’s, there are someone who lost their house and a tornado, like they’re, you know, everybody is going to, those are just sort of drastic examples. But everybody is going to find

Megan Winkler 37:02
their own self, you know, yeah. Well, it’s like, for me in particular, I’ve lately been really drawn to red. Because if my red lips didn’t give it away, us you know, no. Sorry. Part of the what drew me into this work was her red dress, because that is the color of the divine feminine. Oh, is it? Yeah. And it also, you know, is our root chakra. Oh, my goodness. Pluto is being

Cindy Ingram 37:39
Pluto has something to say about the earth. He really does. He’s like, wow.

Megan Winkler 37:45
But yeah, you know, and that that read of the Divine Feminine just popped out at me and whether or not the photographer the artist thought about that. Who knows, but it just makes a beautiful contrast between the red and the green. stand out to me too. Yeah,

Cindy Ingram 38:01
yeah, this artwork for art teachers are listening. We do have a lot of art teacher she’ll sing is really good for teaching composition with the contrasting colors, the contrasting lines, that I mean, it’s a really good like, movement, good elements and principles, artwork to look at

Megan Winkler 38:16
now, and I love like, Yeah, I mean, even just like, from that composition standpoint, it’s like her knee and the line of the road is a V and then there’s like an inverted V with the wind, the building’s roof and everything. It’s just it’s so good.

Cindy Ingram 38:31
Yeah, yeah, it really is. And to be able to do this in a photograph has photographs are amazing. So we’ll link to his website, so you can like all of them are good. I can’t wait. Yeah, they’re so good. Oh, cool. All right. So what else? Are you noticing in the artwork? Is there anything?

Megan Winkler 38:50
Well, so I noticed the like I said, kind of the lens flare, the kind of rainbow behind her that it almost implies, you know, if we look at it from that standpoint of if you just let go and shocked fighting the you know, the forces of the universe that are here to support you, like what, where would you go, and kind of that that image of the rainbow is is hope, and you know, kind of diversity and and all that it’s like, Oh, would you be blown so far off of your course that you wouldn’t recognize your life in five years in a good way. And I just I think that that’s so cool. And I just also love how I’m so drawn to that. That one light her left leg and that line of her calf muscle and everything and it’s Yeah, so So details.

Cindy Ingram 39:44
Really, yes. I love that this rainbow thing it makes me view the wind differently. You know, the at first the wind felt so aggressive and unwelcome and dramatic and still does like that, that pull like the just motion I just feel in my chest when I look at this ticket, it just has just keeps pulling my heart forward. But as I see that that rainbow that you’re mentioning, like it makes me it feels more benevolent. The wind does it feels more. Like if it were to continue on and keep pushing her forward like the rainbow would then would stay with her.

Megan Winkler 40:25
Yeah. It almost looks like it’s like cradling her because yeah, kind of curve behind her. It does. That’s so wild. Yeah, guess. Looks. There’s another one to kind of two quarters of the way back from the peak of the house. I’m like dragging your quarters. If you look at like the peak of the house, and Oh, yes. Yeah. Which is kind of interesting

Cindy Ingram 41:00
that it is. It’s like coming out of the roof of the house.

Megan Winkler 41:05
Yeah. Oh. That’s wild. Yeah.

Cindy Ingram 41:15
This is one of those times where I’m just like, oh, that just happened in the photograph, no big deal. But then I’m like, but I also want to find meaning in it. And yeah, and that’s so fun.

Megan Winkler 41:23
And I’m sure there’s been some digital manipulation of the stuff in the background, just because I can’t imagine, you know, being able to take a photograph and that strong wind. Yeah. You know, it’s kind of like, well, a photographer can choose to leave something in. That’s true.

Cindy Ingram 41:39
That is true. And we know and what I know of his photographs is that many of them had to be edited to create the effect that he he wanted. So he Okay, so rainbow coming out of the house, the house, the house that is falling to pieces, what could that be about?

Megan Winkler 42:00
You know, it could be it could be so many different things. My first thought is kind of that heart of the house. Like, maybe it’s coming out of the kitchen? Or maybe it’s the glow of a television screen. Who knows? Yeah, but, you know, it’s like maybe, and I think that it might just be something else to kind of drag our eye because it’s interesting. It’s like I kind of feel like my eyes are being dragged across the plane of the image like up towards that upper left corner where the it’s just it’s so bright white of the sunshine that the edge of the of the image just kind of disappears. But yeah, I mean, it’s golden light, right? That maybe it’s reaching down from the heavens reaching up to the heavens, it does feel like it almost feels like as we kind of look at this more, she could lean back into that rainbow that’s on the front end of the wind and just be carried up to a new height of some sort.

Cindy Ingram 43:03
Yeah. Oh, gosh, as you’re so you’re, you’re talking about the the rainbow pointing up to the sun and all how your eyes drawn there. But now as you were talking, I started to notice it too. Like if you look at the the roof tiles coming up, if you follow the line of them. They point up to the sun. This branch that’s in the air has this curved line that points to the Sun her hair. Yeah, points to the Sun her her arm. The the belt on her dress points to the sun even her skirt. flares up. It does. Yeah, like everything that’s not pointing down the road. seems to be pointing up to that. Up to that son.

Megan Winkler 43:47
Yeah. She had a necklace on to that’s pulling up

Cindy Ingram 43:53
a bun necklace. Yeah, it’s pulled up my mind towards

Megan Winkler 43:57
like, wow,

Cindy Ingram 43:59
the universe wants her to go there. Yeah, I’m convinced now.

Megan Winkler 44:03
I think you’re right.

Cindy Ingram 44:06
And you know, surrender.

Megan Winkler 44:08
Yeah. And we fight against and yet so many of those messages. Oh, I have chills.

Cindy Ingram 44:15
That’s when you know, you reached a good spot.

Megan Winkler 44:18
Ah, there it is. Yeah. And I do like to kind of behind her the tree is this it is this blur in the wind, but it’s like you can see the blue peeking out between the branches. And it’s, it kind of has that impressionist vibe of like, oh, yeah, I understand what you’re you’re communicating here. That’s so cool. Oh, yeah. Excellent. I think it might be about surrender. Yep.

Cindy Ingram 44:52
I think so to that network. Even before he said it was like that we’re just kept kind of bubbling up and I’m so So we’ve got a this is this is where if you were in the art connection circle, I would ask the participants to journal so this is for you listeners, I haven’t done this yet on the podcast, but now I’m feeling called to do that is to after this episode, take some time and kind of free right on the topic of surrender and where in your life do you feel like you? Mate? You know, what, what are you being called to that you’re resisting? And what can you surrender to? To get you to that? Sunlight place?

Megan Winkler 45:34
Yeah. So I’m gonna do that too.

Cindy Ingram 45:39
Do you have any thoughts that would come to your head of what you think you would need to surrender to?

Megan Winkler 45:45
You now it’s it’s so interesting that you asked that. Because the past week or so, I’ve really been and it doesn’t sound like it’s surrendering to it. But it really is kind of surrendering to my own innate intuition and my own innate magic, and you would think I would already do that. And I do a point. But it’s like with anything, right? It’s like, if you’re learning a language, you get to a point where you need to learn, you know, you the next step up, right. And so I have been feeling you know, called to this next step up, and it’s just a matter of surrendering to the guidance that, that I’m getting within my own heart. And you know, the things that are around me, the universe blowing me in a direction. Yeah, so you know, in letting that letting go of the what ifs and also the the idea that it’s like, oh, I don’t have time or energy for that. It’s like, no, no, I totally do. And as I surrender, and I stopped fighting, yeah, now going inward and really stoking this creative fires. I am more energized than ever. Yeah,

Cindy Ingram 46:55
that’s I was gonna say when I when I’m at that place of excitement and intuition and where it feels right. I have boundless energy. Like, there, I have energy for days to do what I want to do. It’s when I’m resisting, it’s when I’m fighting it, that I don’t have the energy that I need for the work that I’m doing.

Megan Winkler 47:10
Absolutely. So agree. Love it.

Cindy Ingram 47:15
Oh, well, I feel like we arrived at a really solid place to to end this. Do you have any ideas or anything left unsaid? Do you think that you’re?

Megan Winkler 47:24
I don’t think so. I was just gonna go everyone to go check this out. Because I mean, you know, I feel like you could just really sit in front of it and just journal about surrender and just everything else that comes through. Awesome.

Cindy Ingram 47:36
Okay, well, thank you so much. What I want Can you tell us how to find you online, so that if anybody’s interested in learning more about your work that they know that they go to the right place?

Megan Winkler 47:49
Yeah, absolutely. So you can always find me on Instagram @TheMeghanWinkler and it’s Megan. You can also find me at MeganWinkler.com Or goodbusinesswitch.com.

Cindy Ingram 48:01
Wonderful. And do you have a membership?

Megan Winkler 48:05
I will have a coworking membership. I’m launching it very soon. Actually. It’s going up this week. So probably by the time Yeah, actually, by the time that’s gonna be next Thursday when this Yeah. So I have started the co working Kevin, it’s the good business, which is co working Kevin. And it is a coworking membership that is specifically for spiritual folks. You don’t have to be witchy to be in it. But each day has a certain energy. And so we’re really aligning with that. And we’re gonna have co working sessions each week and throughout the month, that are really focused on the energy of the day of the week. So every month, we have a Thursday session where we are doing all our finances, because Thursday is ruled by Jupiter. And Jupiter really aligns with business goals and finances. So we’re gonna, like, you know, balance our books and everything together in community. We don’t have to share the details of said books. But we’re doing it all together at the same time to create just a supportive way to stay accountable to ourselves and to our own desires and businesses. So it’s really cool.

Cindy Ingram 49:14
Awesome. Well, we will put all the links to that in the show notes. Thank you again, Megan, for joining me today. You Cindy. It has been a joy. This is so much fun. Yes. All right.

Thank you again to Meghan for that amazing conversation. And now I will tell you the rest of the story about what happened when I showed this to the art and self connection circle. So the most fascinating thing that happened in the art and self connection circle was that someone noticed that there was a track going from the woman’s foot forward as if she has been she is being dragged backwards. So you can see this just kind of trail from her foot in the dirt. So you know that the entire conversation with Megan and we to talk about is she being pulled back or she is she being pushed forward. And we ultimately liked the interpretation of her being pushed forward. But when you add the addition of that track and the dirt, it changes a lot of things, because then you see, oh, well, she was first forward, and now she is back. And it’s really interesting to me to think about how that changes everything that we we just talked about. And no part of me is like, oh, shall I even tell you the story? Because now you have you wasted your time sitting here listening to us interpret this work of art, and we are missing this key piece of information. But I don’t believe that to be true. I believe that that process of us talking about the work of art together as finding personal meaning in it, of talking about symbolism, talking about feelings, talking about humanity, and society, and all of that. Wonderful things that happen when you have a deep conversation with someone. Of course, that was not time wasted. But it really does show you what can happen when you get you and when you enter into community with someone else regarding a work of art, and that you really spend time with it, dissecting it and talking about it with someone else.

Now, you heard me mention in the interview with Meghan, that, you know, if this were in the art and self connection circle, I would ask you this question for you to journal on. And if that kind of piqued your interest a little bit, if that’s something that you feel like you would benefit from, you want to spend more quality time with works of art, you know, you obviously can do that with this podcast. But if you really want to dive deeper into art, I invite you to check out the art and self connection circle self study version that I have currently released within the last few months. And what this is, is a independent study version of the art and self connection circle. Every week, you get a lesson, which is and questions about a work of art, creative activities around a work of art, as well as self development exercises like uncovering your values, dreaming into your vision. And then you look at artworks that are related to those topics. And really work on learning more about yourself through the context of looking at works of art. And that is available at art class curator.com/self study, or you can just find the link in the show notes. And you can start working on your connection to yourself and to art starting today. I’ll see you next time. Thank you so much for listening to art and self and if you loved what you heard, please consider leaving me a rating or a review on iTunes and share this episode with one friend who you know needs to hear what we talked about today. You will find links to the artworks that we discussed over at the show notes and you can find me on Instagram and Facebook @CindyNeedsArt. Thank you so much for listening and have a wonderful week. We’ll see you next time.